Primary navigation
External links
Ricky Gervais & Stephen Merchant
Stephen Merchant and Ricky Gervais' The Office has been the most talked-about comedy series of recent times. The show, depicting the potential hell of office life, made for hilarious viewing and became and instant hit with viewers and critics alike.
Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant were interviewed at the National Film Theatre by Bruce Dessau on 27 September 2002. In this interview they trade non sequitur insults about Bristol and Reading.
Interview © BFI 2002
Rice Krispies
[Introduction and clip]
Bruce Dessau: Can you tell us a bit about how you got together?
Ricky Gervais: Well, we first met at Xfm. I was Head of Speech. I'd blagged the job. Well paid, wasn't it?
Stephen Merchant: It was good stuff, yeah.
RG: Then I realised I didn't know what I was doing, so I went to them and said I needed an assistant, this was way too hard. So they said, Alright. And his CV came up...
SM: I was on the top of the pile...
RG: ... and he had great A-levels...
SM: Three A's. You were a DJ... Of course, it was probably fate.
RG: We met there, and I remember at the interview I said, I don't know what I'm doing, but if you do all the work you can get away with murder, and Steve was trying to become a stand-up comic... I had this character called Seedy Boss, just a little sketch character really, and the only scene I had was the one that ended up in episode five, where I'm interviewing the girl...
SM: I would often play the girl, when we were mucking around and stuff...
RG: Then Steve left, after about three months.
SM: Well, you were the worst boss I've ever had. Because Ricky's not like a proper boss; he was officially my boss, but it was ludicrous. I mean, I went up to London thinking he was like a big media hot-shot, and I turn up and he's wearing sweat-pants and a vest, or something, and clearly didn't know what he was doing. I was really worried, because I'd rented a place, and it was going to cost me money if I had to go all the way back to Bristol.
RG: He doesn't like spending money...
[SM/RG trade non sequitur insults about Bristol and Reading]
RG: He went to do this TAPS course, a producers' course at the BBC, and after about a year he had a film crew for the day. A lot of other people on the course wanted to do documentaries about inner-city slums and stuff, but he phoned me up and asked if he could film that character, Seedy Boss. We went back to where I used to work. We had a day, and sketch ideas, and I ad-libbed a bit. And we got about 20 minutes out of it; which is what we sent to the BBC.
BD: How was it received, initially?
RG: We actually ran into Paul Jackson in the corridor...
SM: He was quite a big-shot at the BBC.
RG: Quite a player, wasn't he? Red braces. And he handed it to John Plowman, and they said, Do you reckon it could be a sitcom? And we went.... [gestures].
BD: When you were at Xfm, and you were DJ-ing, were your ambitions all along to do something like a sitcom?
RG: It's one of those things you always dream of. You think, Oh, I could write a sitcom, I could write a novel... Really, Steve was much more of the driving force than me. Even on the day, he was going, You're brilliant, Rick, and I was going to get out of here...
SM: The thing about Ricky is - I mean, I'm not just trying to slag him off - he's a nightmare to work with. Because he's like a child - you know those sort of kids you see in those documentaries where they've put a secret camera in someone's house on a council estate somewhere, and they've given the kids something like Kia-Ora, and they're just so wild because they're not supposed to have E-numbers or tartrazine, and they're like frenzied, smashing the place up... That's what Ricky's like, constantly. When we were at Xfm, we used to have people come in and give us promotional stuff, to plug whatever they were doing. And somebody came in with a balloon filled with Rice Krispies, which I put above my desk. So one day I'm doing some filing or some work...
RG: My work...
SM: ... and you're rolling around on your chair...
RG: It had wheels, and it was a polished floor.
SM: Couldn't believe his luck...
RG: The office was about so big and, one kick, I could get to the other end, couldn't I?
SM: So I'm working trying to keep both our heads above water...
RG: Yeah, we regularly got threatened with the sack, so I'd go, Steve, pull it together...
SM: So I'm just working away, I hear a pop, and he's just covered in Rice Krispies...
RG: It's great, because he's such a parent. I'm cracking up. He's going, You've got to clean it up, and that's making me laugh more.
SM: So I went and got a dustpan and brush... But the point I wanted to make about that story is that there was no-one else in the room, it was just the two of us. It wasn't like he was doing that to entertain anyone else. That was enough for him; pleasurable for him...
West Country Accents
BD: Apart from the Rice Krispies, what were the other influences that went into the first thing you shot? From sitcoms, or docu-soaps?
RG: At the time, there had been quite a glut of those: 'Airport', 'Driving School', 'Hotel'... So one of the themes was how normal people, when they get their platform, think, This is it, I'll get an agent, I'll probably go on Channel 5... And then they open their mouth, and they blow it. That was one of the themes, really, that you could become famous overnight.
SM: I think we're racing ahead slightly, because it wasn't even that thought-out when we did it. As he said, I was working at the BBC, and we did it as a training exercise, literally like homework, and it just happened that they gave me a camera crew for the day, and Ricky was just really good.
BD: And it was all shot in one day?
SM: Oh yes.
BD: We actually have part of it to show now.
RG: I'm glad we'll be seeing some of that, because it's far from being really shoddy, or sketchy - it's a blueprint. You'll recognise David Brent. It was already there - Seedy Boss was Brent; and some of the things that came out of that did survive.
[CLIP]
RG: Did you recognise him? Not many people look like that.
BD: From there, straight away, you went to Paul Jackson and he said, Right, I'll have a series...?
SM: Right... three years later...
RG: No, he handed it to John Plowman, who initially commissioned one script, which was episode one, and then we shot that as another pilot for the BBC. We didn't direct that; we were instrumental in it, but it wasn't quite there. it got away from us a little bit, in the sense that there was too much happening...
SM: It was too much like a proper sitcom, with a plot.
RG: Heaven forbid...
BD: You've got this style, that has a kind of restraint about it...
RG: Well, we wanted it to look drained, quite retro, almost 80s, as if the stock had been hanging around for ten years on a shelf somewhere. We wanted it to look quite desperate and boring... Even if you're in a bad job, if it's busy and there's lots of people, it's not so bad, whereas... The life is sucked out of it, and we wanted to get that feeling back.
SM: I don't think we've ever felt as happy as we were with that thing then, because for us that looks the most real, most the way we wanted it to look. Everything else has always felt like a compromise.
RG: Then, that was the first time I'd ever acted, or written anything, and I was obsessed with it being real. Because I didn't know what I wanted exactly, but I knew what I hated on telly - I didn't like big performances, or overacting, or egging comedy. I just obsessively wanted it real; sometimes to the point where they'd say, We didn't quite get that, can you do it again?, and I'd say, No.
SM: But that was nothing to do with perfectionism...
RG: No, that was laziness.
SM: We had to finish by five, so that he could go to the bar.
RG: I've always had that watershed: never drink before five.
BD: I'd like to ask about the comic influences, or sitcom influences.
RG: Well, quite American, I think, in terms of some of the writing and some of the sensibilities. My favourite of all time is Laurel and Hardy; we both think 'The Simpsons' is just the greatest show ever; we like Woody Allen, Larry Sanders, whatever. An obvious big influence was 'Spinal Tap', which was not only a fake documentary, but a comedy. But we also like the wise-crackers, who we thought were winners when we were young, and then realised... Like Fletcher in 'Porridge'. We thought he was a great winner - he's not a winner, he's incarcerated, he's got to look after Godber; he's not a real villain, he's scared of the real villains. I like that maturity.
SM: Obviously, you will have noticed that none of the other characters were in that one, and we were worried that Ricky couldn't carry an entire show on his own. We thought it would be a bit relentless if it was just Brent...
RG: Imagine that...
SM: Although I'm sure you pushed for it. So that's why we introduced the other characters, just to give you respite from Brent. We thought we'd ration him a bit more. Originally we thought we'd just bring him on like The Fonz, and you'd give him a round of applause, and he'd start to do his lines. But obviously you demanded more.
RG: It is an ensemble piece, but the character does dictate that he'll try to get more in the limelight. What makes it worse when he opens his mouth and makes a fool of himself, is that he's invited it. He comes into other people's scenes, he wants to be a star, he already thinks he's a comic. He's one of those people who hang around too long, so that lends itself perfectly to the documentary format. We also thought it would be quite easy, because when we were giving the guff to the BBC, we'd be saying, It'll be a one-camera shoot, we can do it, we've both directed a little bit before, it'll be fine, honestly. We really believed that; but it's really, really hard. We've found out, as we've learned more, that documentaries cheat more than we do. That thing when he's getting the chair ready, we didn't put anything like that in the real thing. We thought that was cheating, that he wouldn't do that sort of thing in front of a camera. Even though you probably didn't notice that, and accepted it. I think we were over-cautious. It was a real bind; but what we liked in the end was all the problem-solving.
SM: Normally, I guess, if you're making a film or a TV show, you'll do a master shot, a wide shot of the action, and then maybe you'll do close-ups of the actors, and off you'll go. But because it has got to look like a documentary, you've got to do all of that plus stuff with the camera moving and panning as well, so you've always got to shoot twice as much as you would normally. And if you've got someone like Ricky, who's not a trained actor, who's more like a petulant child, and wants to go at five, you've got this sort of performance plateau. It reaches a moment. So you'll maybe get two takes that are good; everything else is rubbish, you can't use it.
BD: In a way, it's like Les Dawson playing the piano. You have to be able to play the piano properly before you can play it badly. You had to be able to make a proper fly-on-the-wall documentary before you could...
RG: I thought he was talking about me...
SM: Hold on, how does that analogy work with you?
RG: I thought he was saying that I could do it properly, but then I thought I didn't have to... Yes, we did. Yet I've seen things in, say, 'Hotel', where she's walking down a corridor and you'll see her slip, and it goes into a close-up of what she slips on. Well, when did you film that? So, seriously, documentaries do cheat more than we do.
BD: You brought in other characters, and we seem to know a lot about these characters without being told much about them. It's quite a big ensemble cast, isn't it?
RG: That's really nice you say that, because we were obsessed with this 'show, not tell'. I've never liked exposition, I've never liked insulting people's intelligence. Like when people come in, and just in case you haven't seen a show before, they go, You know your brother, the doctor..? Well of course I do, why are you talking to me like that? We didn't want to do that, or anything they wouldn't do in front of a camera. Yet you've got to find out about them, so how do you do that? We used spies more in the second series than the first, but often you don't need to know the backstory, or exactly what they're thinking; you can do it with a bit of body language. If you want to tell someone's lying, just let him do it, and let him fidget; go, Yeah, no, course I sent the letter... He's lying; people know that.
BD: We actually know very little about David Brent; so little about his life outside the office. For instance, Is he married? Is he divorced? Does he live with his mum?
RG: That's on purpose. I don't think you need to know his backstory. When I like a character [in another series], and in the second series they send him to Spain, or his sister comes in - and she's actually the actor in drag - I don't need to know all that. It's contextual. And the jeopardy with Brent is that he's a 40-year-old fool who should know better, and he's in charge of these people. If he was a fool on holiday by the swimming pool, who cares? That's allowed. Whereas the job is the dynamic that counts, that's what you want to see him up against.
SM: Hopefully with the other characters as well. We did literally sit down to talk, for about eight weeks, probably, just about the kinds of people we'd worked with, in offices. Because there do seem to be these types of people you meet each time. There's always the guy who's better than that job, and wants to leave, but hasn't got the balls. And there's the kind of pedantic jobsworth, who's the bane of everyone's life. And the Chris Finch type, those obnoxious reps or whatever, who somehow seem to get away with murder. They say all the things David Brent's feeling without ever getting caught.
RG: I've always been obsessed with that sort of funny figure. Sometimes they walk into the room and they make you laugh, at the expense of someone else. Then you think, It's my turn next... You shouldn't laugh at bullies, but you can't help it, because he does say quite funny things. And there's only Tim there, who's us, who's rationality, who's sensible people; who goes, I hate this bloke... And you go, Yeah, and so you should... So you like Tim, you must feel that you're Tim.
BD: Like a lot of other people, I sometimes have to watch it through my fingers - I can't bear to watch...
RG: Again, I love that sort of thing. It's strange, because I can hand it out, but I can't take it. I couldn't watch Darren Day singing - I'd be running out of the room, but I wanted someone to hold me back, so I'd suffer as well. Like the first rounds of 'Pop Idol', where there are people bordering on the mentally ill; I can't watch it. I know what hurts me, so hopefully I know what hurts other people.
SM: To me, Tim is the one who's trapped in Hell. In fact, all of the characters are, but Tim is the only one to realise it.
RG: I remember having that dilemma when I was 18 or 19. You're talking pub philosophy, and it's that question of whether you'd rather be a satisfied fool or a dissatisfied Socrates. Most of us think we'd rather be a dissatisfied Socrates, and he is, while the others are satisfied fools. I mean, they're kidding themselves. We did that 'Top Ten TV Bastards' thing, and throughout I was saying, I don't think he is a bastard, really; he's a twit. Finch is a bastard. But Brent isn't. He's alright - I think he just needs a hug. His biggest crime is confusing popularity with respect.
BD: To him the most important thing is that people feel he's funny...
RG: I know. Luckily, nature's got a way of helping us out, because he's got such a huge blind spot that he really thinks they love him, which is OK.
BD: I have to ask this, it's the one slight plot contrivance...
RG: I didn't come here to be insulted. Let's walk...
BD: Well, there are two, actually. How did he ever get to be boss? And how does he ever hold on to the job?
RG: Well, I can answer them both in one. So here we go - Walk around the BBC for one day... What are you doing? How long have you been here? You made what and they promoted you?
BD: That's the Peter Principle, where you get promoted to the level of your own incompetence. But are Brent, or Tim and Gareth, based on specific people?
RG: No, they're all Frankensteins. Tim's there as everyone's conscience. He's there to let you know that that joke Finch made is wrong. That he is in Hell, and that Gareth's a fool, and that he should move on, and that it's his own fault. Brent's definitely a Frankenstein of all those people who think they shouldn't have to go through the getting-to-know-you. They should just hand you a card, Great Bloke, let's move on.
BD: Were there not people at Xfm that were like that, that you've worked into the part?
RG: I've got a list here of who it's all based on... No, it's any boss who wants to be respected and 'the best laugh'. You can do it, but you have to be better than Brent to do it. You have to be better at your job than Brent is. And funnier.
SM: In the case of Gareth, we gave him a West Country accent, because apparently that's funny...
[RG/SM asides on different perceptions of (SM's) accent]
75 Takes
SM: The other thing about Gareth is that, whereas most of the other characters are based on people we've met in adult life, in offices, Gareth is much more based on when we were 12 or 13. When kids used to say ridiculous things. You know, like, I can catch a monkey - Easy. I remember a bloke telling me once, when I was about 11, I shot a worm once... And another guy who was a bit of an influence on me. I went round to his house once, and he says, How big is your Christmas tree? I went, I dunno, regular Christmas tree, I suppose. He went, Ours is so big that my dad had to cut a hole in the ceiling for it to go through...
RG: I don't know if it's gone in there in the end, but someone actually said to me once, You know if you're in the SAS, you can't tell anyone you're in the SAS: not your parents, not your closest friends, no-one... And I said, Yeah, that's true - I know a couple of people in the SAS...
BD: There's an amazing attention to detail. I noticed that in the clip we saw, it was set in Staffordshire. But for the BBC it was moved...
RG: We sort of made things up because of the voiceover. That was secondary. That was more to add to the realism of it being a fake documentary.
BD: It said they're working in a woodpulp dye and bleach business. There is no such business.
RG: No, we just made it up, we really did knock that together. Then we decided to set it in the Thames Valley because I could do the accent.
BD: You've not got anything in particular against Slough, then? It's not a Betjeman thing?
RG: If you read the Betjeman poem, you might think we'd based it on that, but obviously we didn't.
BD: That montage you show when you read it...
SM: That was just good fortune. We were writing that episode, and someone remembered the Slough poem... But he says in a couple of stanzas what we took a series to do.
BD: You're on the second series now. The first series was so well received, garlanded with a clutch of BAFTAs and so on. How much pressure did you feel following that?
RG: For the first week, we worried about expectations. But after that we said it just didn't matter what they were expecting: they had liked what we did last time; it's up to us. They'll eat what they're given - It was fine. It was easier. The first series took about three years. On this one we spent about eight months writing. We had the actors in place, which is a joy. We suddenly knew we were writing for Martin and Lucy and Mackenzie. We knew how it would come out; we knew what it would look like. So it was a lot easier.
SM: I don't know about you, Ricky, but the thing that excites me most is the drama of it. That's the sort of thing we work harder on now. So that the love story, if you can call it that, carries on...
RG: There's a bit more grown-up drama to it now, but you wouldn't notice it unless you watched twelve in a row...
SM: There's still lots of funny faces, and falling over...
BD: I've watched a couple of episodes. Is it true to say it's gone into slightly darker places? Is that conscious?
RG: I suppose it has, just because you're getting to know someone a bit more. However much you think you know Brent, you've only seen him for... You know, for the first three hours when you meet someone who's a bit of a clown, you're only going to see the laughter... Oh God, why did I say that, it's going to get all pretentious. Help me out.
SM: Tell them a knob gag or something.
RG: ... and there's some trifle. And I fall over in it... But no, you do get to know him a bit more, and this time he gets a nemesis that he didn't have before. So he's got a new thorn in his side, and it's how he reacts under pressure. That's the extra darkness: the fact that we do chase Brent and hit him with a stick, just a little bit more. Hopefully it's as funny; I don't think it's drenched in pathos. We're really not trying to make any big statements. But I've always liked a little bit of gravitas. If someone slips over on trifle, that's funny. If they slip over on trifle when their wife has just told them she's having an affair... How can that be funny? What have I said that for? That's terrible...
SM: Did that happen to you once?
RG: Yeah; hundreds-and-thousands got up my nose... You know those posters you used to get in Athena, with the chimp on the toilet? I always used to think of someone having that up on the wall, loving that, then he finds his business has gone bankrupt, his wife's run off with his brother, and he hears all this, and turns round and looks at the poster, and just thinks, It's not making me laugh any more... That's what we were doing in the second series a little bit more.
BD: The first episode of the second series: very loosely, it's about racism.
RG: It's not so much about racism as about someone like Brent, who thinks he knows the rules, and wants to confront it and be a grown-up, but can't. Basically, a black guy comes from Swindon, and Brent is fascinated by this. Even though he thinks he's cool with it, he says the wrong thing, and starts trying to be cool around him. At one point he comes up and asks, See that film last night with Denzel Washington? Brilliant, isn't he? The bloke says, He's really good. And Brent goes away and comes back again - But he's not my favourite actor of all time. My favourite actor of all time is Sidney Poitier. And Brent thinks, That's it. I've talked on his level.
BD: It's the same thing as the way he thinks he gets on with women.
RG: Yeah, that's it. He's actually scared of '-isms', and '-ists'; and if he just relaxed a bit more, he'd be an OK bloke.
BD: Has there been any discussion about moving it to BBC1?
RG: I think we should definitely finish it first. Do maybe two, three, four series, and then move it over. I like the idea that people have to press at least one button to find it.
BD: What do you think about the future?
RG: I think we're all going to have our own jet-packs...
SM: You'll be able to get an entire meal in a pill...
RG: Well, I think it's got a few more hours in it. I don't think it can lag around for ten years and ten series. Because how long, realistically, would a film crew be around...? But let's see how this one goes; this is all over in seven weeks. We'll know more then. Then it's up to the BBC.
SM: Seven weeks? There are only six episodes...
RG: Yeah...
SM: Have you made an episode I don't know about? It's not that one where the jewel thieves have planted their loot underneath...
RG: ... and I play my sister...
SM: ... and they all get to Marbella?
BD: Can you tell us a little bit more about the second series?
RG: It's pretty claustrophobic, and it's still set around the humdrum life of a busy white-collar office.
BD: It's already quite a large cast, and you bring in more with the Swindon branch. That's a lot of people to deal with.
RG: It's only about 25. I think it's realistic: you know, stacked on top of one another.
SM: But in a sense they come in to serve the function of some of the characters from the previous series. They represent types, and it's much more about seeing Brent or Tim or Gareth react to them...
RG: ... to the new blood. They're much more a catalyst.
BD: How much of David Brent is there in Ricky Gervais?
RG: I hope very little; though I think we've got a bit of Brent in all of us. We don't want to make a fool of ourselves. No matter how much you laugh when you fall over, you wish you hadn't. You are worried about what people think of you. People do worry about being popular; and people are a bit insecure. When Steve was last asked this, he went, They're both workshy. Which was very nice... But there is a sense of there-but-for-the-grace-of-God-go-I; we're only one step away from being a fool, in a job we don't like.
BD: Do you worry about type-casting? You capture David Brent perfectly. What other parts would you like to play? Or are there other things you'd like to do?
RG: Yes, definitely.
SM: Ricky's very much the new Reg Varney...
RG: I saw an old episode of 'On The Buses', and it's shoddy. They're even forgetting their lines; and I'm saying, Do that again...
SM: Whereas when you do that we just cut it out.
RG: But I'd love to do other stuff. The next one is - I'm an ex-boxer, but I've killed a man in the ring; the wife left me because of the drinking; and if that cop wants me to come back for one last job, then he'd better get on his knees...
SM: You wish he'd get off your back, though... If you're a maverick, can you get results?
RG: 'Course I do.
SM: That's why they need you.
RG: So in the next episode of 'Jezzock, P.I.'..... Oh God, he's only 32. I can do that - we'll put a little bit of vaseline on the lens...
SM: I hope you've patched things up with your 18-year-old daughter; she's gone off the rails...
RG: Yeah; drugs... I'm gonna get them drug dealers... But, yeah, we're getting lots of little film offers here and there; though I think, They'll find me out. Is it set in Reading? No? I can't, then... can't do the accent.
BD: But you're not going to go back to DJ-ing, are you?
SM: We were sacked, actually.
RG: Hang on. I was only sacked from Radio One. I left Xfm.
SM: They asked you to leave...
RG: What it was, we just constantly kept handing in shoddy stuff they couldn't use. The straw that broke the camel's back - Simon Mayo had just broken the world record for DJ-ing; was it 24 hours non-stop? Well, we go and say, That's brilliant. Whooh. A nice air-conditioned studio, people running for coffee for him... Our dad used to build walls... I'd have liked to have seen him on his knees outside Macdonalds giving blow-jobs for money; that's work. And the producer said, we can't have that, it's not right...
SM: It's not Christian...
RG: That's right, he was a Christian.
BD: So your Radio One career was relatively short?
RG: Finished.
BD: We now have a clip from an episode in the second series. Would you like to set the scene for it?
RG: I think it's self explanatory. It's loosely around staff appraisals...
[CLIP]
SM: Can I just say that that bit at the beginning took 75 takes...
RG: There is a reason for that... You know that whole bit at the beginning: Tim, Canterbury, Chaucer, Shakespeare? That was all ad-libbed to put Martin off. That's bad, isn't it?
SM: Bad. Negative. That's the thing about Ricky, he'll spend a lot of his time just putting off other actors, for his own amusement. 75 takes is inordinate. You should be doing four or five takes of something like that. We pencilled that scene for a couple of hours in the morning; and it took us all day. Other actors were coming in, leaving, people sleeping over, bringing food in...
RG: But then when he got that, I'd always change it a little bit; like one or two words...
SM: But you knew we'd done 40 or so takes already, so why?
RG: Funny.
SM: Obviously, when Ricky's on screen, I'm the only person keeping an eye on him. So you're back there just swearing, and everyone's looking to you to sort it out. But you've got to get round him, because he's the star. You don't want to tell him off, because you've got to massage his precious little ego. So it's like, Do you want another cheese sandwich? Or, Why don't you take five? So you can come up with some more crap...
RG: And I'd go, I told you it was funny... And he's laughing, really.
SM: But that was harrowing.
RG: 75 was too long. We nearly fired him, didn't we?
BD: How tightly scripted is it?
RG: It's all scripted. 99 per cent. Only I'm allowed to put off the other actors. But the actors are so good. That's the thing, we knew nothing, as chancers off the street, except that the most important things were the script and the casting. That's what took three years; apart from the BBC going, You want to direct it as well? But you're rubbish... We spent all the time re-writing the scripts. Then it took a year casting. Even if somone walked through the door and they were good, we said, They're great; but we've got another six months. Keep looking. Other people had the roles - until Mackenzie walked through the door, someone else pretty much had the Gareth role nailed, though he didn't know it. Martin wasn't what we were looking for originally...
SM: Martin came in for Mackenzie's role...
RG: That's what we spent the time doing. Getting the script right, and getting actors who could play it like it was real.
BD: Can you tell me a little about the writing process, then? How you actually sit down and write together?
RG: We only ever write together. Apart from saying, Oh, I've had an idea..., we always write together.
SM: We go in about 11.00, you muck around until about 1.00, we break for lunch.
RG: I have a lunch that's too big, so I'm tired...
SM: We were writing at the BBC once... We borrowed someone's office, because we couldn't work at his house any more: there were too many distractions. He's got toys, animals, bright lights, mirrors. Anything will distract him. So we asked the BBC if we could have an office, and we used to sneak into people's offices when they weren't there. And he'd had a heavy lunch, and said, Do you mind if, while we're writing, I just lie on the floor under this desk? So he did, while I did some typing, and occasionally I'd ask some questions, and he'd snore or mumble something. And I was acting out a scene we'd written, and reading it back for him. And I knocked on the desk, and he leapt up, thinking someone had come in. He didn't want to get caught looking workshy, because he'd won an award and stuff...
RG: What a trick to play on someone with a heart condition... I haven't got one, but I'm bound to have one someday. With all that cheese, it's in the post, isn't it, really?
BD: So that's how you do it when you're writing, you act out scenes between you?
RG: It's all out of ad-lib. Practically always it's the first thing we say that makes it onto the dictaphone.
SM: I think it makes it easier, as well, because Ricky's playing the main character. I don't know how we'd cope writing only for other people. There's that confidence thing, that he can get up and perform it, and it makes something funny. And obviously now we know how the other actors look, and how they talk, it makes things easier.
RG: I probably will play all the parts in the next series.
Des-Ree fans
BD: I think now's a good time to ask for questions... but beforehand, there's one more thing I wanted to ask you...
RG: What, there were no questions? You lot are not here for us, are you? There's a film on at 10.00 isn't there? A Japanese film...
BD: The theme tune - so evocative, seems perfect. Was it your first choice?
RG: Yes, we both love that song. Great song. We wanted something retro, and quite melancholy... There's a real Englishness about that song, too.
SM: We didn't want anything that was too specific, that related too directly to the show, like 'Working 9 to 5' or whatever.
RG: [Sings] Mouse mat, mouse mat... If I was John Sullivan, I'd have sung it. I'm not slagging him off, don't get me wrong. Rod Stewart's version cost too much, so we went and recorded it again.
SM: With someone cheaper.
BD: Were there other potential choices?
RG: We were going to end the show with a different song; we had a few lined up. But clearing the rights and everything; we weren't getting anywhere. There was 'Sitting' by Cat Stevens, which we're both fans of, and 'Life' by Des-Ree. We decided to become Des-Ree fans.
SM: But you are a Des-Ree fan...
RG: Shut up, no. I like all that new punk...
BD: But you didn't consider writing a theme tune yourselves?
RG: No. The songs in the show were bad enough. Me and the Stereophonics... It's funny, though. Comic Relief want me to do something, and I thought maybe Brent could get a chance to release that single, to go into the studio... But then I just thought 'Spinal Tap' has nailed everything to do with the music industry. It would be exciting to do, but what's the point?
SM: Didn't stop Bad News.
RG: True enough. Good stuff. Tempting.
Q: How much is Chris Finch in the new series?
RG: He's in it again, another two episodes, same as in the first series.
SM: The problem with Chris is, like we said about The Fonz, you just want to bring him on and take him off again. otherwise he overpowers the show when he comes in. Everything has to stop for him; really, nothing else can take place while he's there.
RG: You can't quite follow it; so we have to be very careful.
SM: We have to ration it. There are a couple of new characters who again are types - not like him, but hopefully just as recognisable types that you find in offices.
BD: Is Neil, the boss from Swindon who comes over, the main newcomer?
RG: Yes
Q: Is there any role for Carl Pilkington?
RG: Carl was our producer on Xfm. He's just the closest living thing to Homer Simpson. He's like if a cat could talk. It'd be dangerous - the bright lights, he'd go mental.
Q: If you sold the format to America, who would you like to play David Brent?
RG: I've thought about it. Yeah, George Clooney... I actually think Bruno Kirby.
SM: I think maybe he's too old...
RG: He could do that, though. Americans, they look a bit younger, a bit cooler.
BD: The mid-life crisis is quite crucial, though.
RG: But it probably happens a bit later out there. California - a lot of fruit... Yeah, Bruno Kirby.
SM: Danny De Vito?
RG: Yeah... Tim could be John Cusack.
SM: He's a movie star, Gervais, you've got no idea.
RG: He'd love to do it. He'd want to work for me; definitely. Ask him...
BD: Has any other country shown interest in the format yet?
RG: This version's out in Australia.
SM: I don't know what format there is to sell, really.
Q: about the apparent obsession with the disabled.
RG: They're cheaper... That's not true. They're expensive, aren't they?
SM: They are quite expensive. There's not many of them.
RG: Well, we thought we'd set up a world of this fake P.C.. It was almost like a sociological experiment, where we put in these people who've never seen anything like Brent, and it's to see how he reacts to them.
Q: Have you ever worked in an office?
RG: Yes, for five or six years.
SM: That office you see in the demo thing is Ricky's old office, and then we modelled our office on that.
RG: ... and where Steve was sitting, that was my old desk.
BD: It's very much like the old 'You don't have to be mad to work here...' thing.
RG: There's a stand-up comedian who has a joke on this. He's started work at a new place, and there's the secretary, and behind her she's got 'You don't have to be mad to work here. But it helps'. But it was written in her own shit. - I wish that were one of mine.
BD: The only other character I've seen remotely like David Brent in recent years is of course Colin Hunt, from 'The Fast Show'.
RG: He's having a go, isn't he? That's one aspect, that life-and-soul-of-the-party, although Colin Hunt... that's what he nails to be funny, it's a little bit bigger, not so based in reality. So we weren't scared. There are lots of things that have come before us - Captain Mainwaring is a pompous fool who can't take criticism; Basil Fawlty is delusional and pretentious...
BD: People who lack self-knowledge.
RG: Exactly, that's the theme. Not just a British one, but an American one as well. The person who's got a big blind spot; the mid-life crisis... Men as boys is a very big theme, and men never growing up. That's a Laurel and Hardy thing, a 'Simpsons' thing - men as boys is huge throughout British comedy. So it's by no means totally original. We owe a lot to everything going before us, by definition. But we didn't rip 'em off...
Q: as to whether the cast will be taken out of the office location again in the second series.
RG: We take them out twice. Once he takes the Swindon lot out to a pub, and in episode four he gets the chance to do a motivational speech for a company, and goes to a community centre and speaks to about thirty people.
SM: We felt like we'd be going over old ground if we took them out for a party again. We'd already nailed what we wanted to say with that.
RG: Again, it is contextual. And I do like the fact that the jeopardy for Brent is being a boss in that environment. When he's out, he's almost allowed to be a bit of a fool. So I like the claustrophobia of the office. It does work a lot better in the office - I mean, you can take him out, but the environment has to be not one of playtime.
BD: The office itself; it's the classic format of being trapped.
RG: You have to be trapped. I never understood 'Steptoe and Son' when I was growing up. I sort of liked it, but I thought, Why doesn't he just leave him? OK, he can't, he's his dad, he's trapped emotionally; but there has to be some sort of entrapment. Fletcher in 'Porridge' is caught, he can't leave the situation.
BD: It's fascinating that there have been two other sitcoms in recent years that have been set in an office environment, and that both really failed. There was 'The Peter Principle', with Jim Broadbent, who's great, and one, completely forgotten, was 'A Nice Day at the Office', which had Tim Spall in it.
RG: I didn't see either of them, I'm afraid.
BD: I was wondering why some work and some don't.
RG: It mustn't just be a backdrop; because a backdrop can just be irrelevant. It has to be about the nitty-gritty, the minutiae of what it's about to be in an office. I think, wherever it's set, in a pub or in an office, if the backdrop is irrelevant, you're never quite going to get that feeling of getting your hands dirty.
SM: A lot of the older sitcoms that used to do things in offices often relied on a slightly tortuous plot - you know, Mr Yakamoto from the corporation's coming; whatever you do, don't embarrass me in front of him and his wife...
RG: ... which is the theme of our next film...
SM: So we wanted to avoid that. Because our experience of offices was that we never saw Mr Yakamoto.
RG: There isn't a lot of incident. I've worked in offices where, if there was a screech of brakes, there'd be 30 people against the window.
Q: about the congruence of 'The Office' and a recent documentary.
RG: I love documentary. I get depressed when I see a good documentary, because I can't compete with that. There's nothing as good as real life. All my favourite things have been documentaries. What was nice about that - I watched it and loved it - was thinking, Oh, we got that right; Oh good, we didn't go too far. The amazing thing about that was, it was fly-on-the-wall, and at one point there was the Human Resources woman, and she's going, Oh, tell me, tell me: it won't go further than this room... And the other woman goes, Oh well, OK... And there was one guy who sort of got fired because he was basically too good, and he was going, I got fired... I was a bit slow... and so on, and someone hears about this, and they're not happy. She calls him over, and goes, I understand you were talking to the camera crew about ins and outs, and we don't want that to go on camera. And he went, You know they're filming this...?
BD: It has come almost full circle now, with fly-on-the-wall documentaries now being pitched as real-life sitcoms. Like the thing on the other week, 'The World's Worst Bosses', where the characters had obviously been chosen because they were like David Brent...
RG: Well not only is it that some 50% of people work in offices, you're there for about a third of your life. So it's a big part...
SM: People are going to get depressed about that. You've ruined their weekend. They've come out for a laugh, with funnyman Ricky Gervais, and you've sent them spiralling over the edge...
RG: We don't think you need big conceits. Where the conceit is, This is a ghost - but he walks among us... Or, This is set on Mars in the future...
SM: Although 'Jessock' is set on Mars in the future...
RG: Yeah. I'll be using a much better body for that.
Q: on the use or disdain of laugh-tracks.
RG: That can ruin it for me. You don't need to be told when to laugh. Though sometimes it works; it gets a vibrance. Like on 'Seinfeld' and things like that it works really well. I don't think we needed it, because first of all, why would you be showing people a funny documentary? We were trying to base it in reality. It's the lack of incident that makes it slightly different, if it is.
SM: We are of course, however, recording you this evening, in case the second series flags a bit, so we can just whack your laughter on...
BD: The other thing making it a bit sparse is that there's no narration.
RG: As you saw, we started with that, back in 1997. But by the time we were ready to film it, 'People Like Us' had happened, 'Operation Good Guys' had happened, so we didn't want the press to go, Not another spoof documentary... Ours isn't actually a spoof documentary, it's a fake documentary. We don't spoof the genre.
SM: Pretentious. You told me to tell you if you started to sound pretentious.
RG: I told you to touch my leg...
SM: I didn't realise the desk would be this low...
BD: People are often critical of the ratio of bad sitcoms to good sitcoms, but it seems to me we're in a bit of a Golden Age at present.
RG: But that's true of all programmes. There are ten bad ones to every good one on telly, because you have to fill all those peak hours, seven days a week, forever. So they can't all be good.
BD: But the current ratio of good sitcoms...
RG: I think that's true. Having said that, though, there has always been something great to watch. Go back to the 70s, there was loads I loved: 'Fawlty Towers', 'Rising Damp', 'Porridge'... 80s: 'Blackadder'. 90s: 'Father Ted' was brilliant, 'Partridge' really kickstarted a new age for me, 'League of Gentlemen' ... There's always been some good stuff around.
Q: as to the importance in the second series of the drama of Tim and Dawn unfolding.
RG: Very important for us, and definitely we're going to continue it. With all those sort of things, you tune in for the comedy and the schtick, and the Brent-type character, but when you stay watching, what resonates is the drama.
SM: One of my favourite shows was the first couple of series of 'Friends'. I thought that was a brilliant show. I know people slag it off, or they say it's schmaltzy. But I think what made that show so popular was that romance between those two characters. If people could get only half as excited as they did about that for our show, that would be brilliant. People have come up and asked, What happens? Do they get together? That's more exciting than, Oh, does Ricky Gervais pull another funny face? Or look at the camera? Or fiddle with his tie?
RG: Yes. Next... That's all the tricks given away. Now anyone can do it.
BD: With some sitcoms - even, I think, 'Father Ted' - you could choose the order they're shown in after they were made. But with yours, you can't.
RG: No. We wanted to stretch the investment. The best thing, apart from film, is soaps. If you can get a soap with laughs... Because when they're good, they're amazing television. That's why the Christmas edition, with a really big storyline, with a climax, is so good. Because you've got so many hours' investment.
SM: But also the fact that you have to wait a week, on things like 'Northern Exposure' or 'Murder One', for that next instalment: that's a pleasure in itself.
BD: With 'The Office', people want to see how things evolve. Like your relationship with Neil. Is that big?
RG: Yes, I think that's certainly Brent's main trajectory. His nemesis.
BD: But you don't want to make Brent too tragic?
RG: I think you get to like him more. I think it shows a bit more of a human side. Without giving too much away, he's not just a clown in series two. He's alright. I hope people like him by the end of it.
SM: And find him sexy...
Q: about how hands-on the BBC were.
RG: They were great. After the initial begging to be allowed to do it all ourselves, they were great. We got our own way with the script... I say our own way, but there was no argument, actually. They let us cut it, they didn't come in on the edit. I really thank them for that, they really gave us enough rope. I think it might have been different if it had been a twenty-part, 45-minute drama... It was a very low budget thing, and they took a punt. I think they made the right decision, obviously. And they totally left us alone this time, so I've got to thank them for that.
Q: as to what extra features are included on the new DVD of series one.
SM: A lot of the same jokes you've heard this evening. Some amusing bloopers...
RG: All the out-takes. Because we filmed about 40 minutes per episode; we filmed too much. But we did that for a reason, so we could cut it up and make it mix and match like a real documentary team would. There are a few scenes we left out; there's a 40-minute documentary. We didn't do a commentary.
SM: A commentary would be interminable. Can you imagine us just wittering on? So boring.
RG: There's a whole verse and chorus of 'Free Love Freeway' that we originally cut short, so here it's me doing the whole song.
SM: Talking of which, you've brought your guitar this evening...
BD: The pilot, or the training film - presumably you couldn't include that [on the DVD] because of a rights thing?
RG: There are some clips of that, but not the whole thing. We've got to hold something back for the pension.
Q: asking if any truth in reports that they're to produce management videos.
RG: I did something for John Cleese, actually, just as an actor. I introduced a Dixons CD-Rom. I think that's what leaked and got into the paper... Like who cares? I just did a bit of schtick at the beginning, and then it's like Davina McCall or someone taking you through the course. Don't bother trying to get that CD-Rom.
Q: asking if any plans for David Brent management training videos.
RG: I want to save them for corporate. Make a lot more money.
Q: Are there any cameo appearances in the second series?
RG: We did think about it, but it would have broken things down too much. I mean, everyone's been on television now. Originally we wanted to really make the whole thing with complete unknowns, just to suspend disbelief a bit more, but now you've seen everyone [from the cast] in something else anyway. But we just didn't want Paul Whitehouse turning up, and stuff..
SM: I can't believe it. Hear-Say have just arrived...
RG: ... and I just go, Isn't that great?
SM: When's that available?
RG: November 3rd. I go, Brilliant... That would be great, wouldn't it - product placement.
Q: When you have to kill lines, or cut them, do you fight at all?
RG: No. We can see if it's working, and we film too much. So the only tragedy is losing a really funny joke, because it's got to go because of time, or something more important, that tells the story a bit or has a knock-on effect. So sometimes things we feel are hilarious will have to go.
SM: Also things which are probably funnier than a lot of other stuff, but feel a bit phoney in terms of a documentary. We'll have a lot of stuff to put on a DVD of this series that's really funny, but just doesn't sit with the show.
Q: Were the series' songs specially written, or were they embarrassing songs from your past?
RG: No, definitely not. Written specially for the programme. We didn't want them to be spoof songs; we didn't want the songs to be funny. We just wanted it to be ludicrous that these are the sort of songs a 40-year-old man working in a paper merchants' should think he should be doing on a training day. Again, it was the context that was ludicrous; we wanted it to be possible that he'd written them in all seriousness. No, I didn't write them twenty years ago and think, I can use these...
Q: Does Mackenzie actually look like that?
RG: He does, yes. Apparently his mother rang up after the first show asking why he had to wear so much make-up. And he said, There isn't any... Well, he hasn't got the stupid haircut; we made him do that.
SM: And he hasn't got the stupid accent, either...
Q: asking SM if he auditioned to be in the show, or if he'd have liked to be in it.
RG: There's no way. He said, What do you think, Rick? And I said, You're rubbish. He went, OK.
SM: Mackenzie's character, which is the one I obviously sound most like, wasn't envisaged like that originally. He was going to be a more stocky, rugby-player type. We were auditioning people with that kind of thing in mind. Then Mackenzie came in and he just sort of made it his own.
RG: I think it's nice that he's weaselly. This arrogant person who thinks he could survive after the holocaust - by chasing bears. He's such a little weasel.
BD: You weren't in the Territorial Army, were you? That's not where that comes from?
RG: No. With his physique, he should have been. He was in the Guides for a few weeks...
Q: asking RG if he's likely to make another sortie into pop music.
RG: No, definitely not. I'm not like Brent. I know my time was way, way ago. No, definitely not... I'm thinking, though - Do you reckon I could make it? Meatloaf? No.
SM: Imagine if you did put out a Christmas single, as Brent...
RG: Oh yeah, it could be me and Big Keith from the series doing 'Jungle Bells', and we'd do the scene... I'd be King Louie and he'd be Baloo... At Number 17...
SM: ... those crazy guys from 'The Office'...
[Wrap-up, thanks & final clip]
