“This one is a little more gothic horror”: Josh O’Connor and Rian Johnson on Wake Up Dead Man

An immaculately dressed detective with a mind just as sharp solves a fiendishly complex murder case while managing and manipulating a broad range of untrustworthy suspects – yep, Rian Johnson is back for another Knives Out mystery.

Wake Up Dead Man is the third franchise entry and sends Southern-fried private eye Benoit Blanc (Daniel Craig) a real test of faith. He’s invited to upstate New York to investigate the murder of Monsignor Jefferson Wicks (a fire-and-brimstone Josh Brolin) by his acolyte Reverend Jud Duplenticy, a former boxer turned man-of-God. Jud is played by a chap that’s more man-of-the-moment if his acting career is anything to go by: Josh O’Connor, in one of his four major 2025 releases.

Joining Daniel and the two Joshs are a veritable rogue’s gallery of Hollywood faces new and old-school: actors Jeremy Renner, Glenn Close, Jeffrey Wright, Mila Kunis, Andrew Scott, Cailee Spaeny and Daryl McCormack all offer tricky turns as people who could have had a hand in this latest capital crime.

The day after the film’s international premiere as the Opening Night Gala at the BFI London Film Festival in October, writer-director Johnson and O’Connor sat down to get to the heart of the film, discuss matters of faith, Midsomer Murders and even Steven Spielberg.

Lou Thomas: Rian, it’s your third Knives Out film. What’s different this time?

Rian Johnson: The tone is very different than the last one. This one is a little more gothic horror. It’s about faith and religion, so thematically there’s a lot of new stuff going on.

But the cast is really the thing that defines these movies, so the big thing that’s different is, having this guy [O’Connor] in it. That’s also what defines the experience of making the movie – I always learn so much from every single great actor I get to work with. 

How did Rian pitch your role, Josh, and what appealed to you about the character?

Josh O’Connor: Rian did not have to pitch anything. I’d just finished filming something in New York and I was in Philadelphia visiting someone. I got a phone call saying Rian wanted to Zoom, and I was so excited.

We ended up talking for a long time about religion and about our experiences of organised religion and growing up. God and spirituality and hope and truth and all these things. It came right at this time where I was all over the place. I’ve just finished on one movie. I was about to go and do publicity for Challengers [2024], my head was spinning, and out of this came a director that I had respected for such a long time and always wanted to work with. Then this story, which was answering questions that I was having at the time about the world and about myself and about what it means to exist on this planet as a human, and how complex that is. So our first conversation was really enlightening.

The film seems to be saying that faith can be dangerous but it can also be really useful. Is that the message of the film?

Johnson: I hope the film doesn’t have a message, God forbid. You’re dead in the water. But I think that’s part of the question I hope the movie is getting the audience to think about. I think that faith is one aspect of human experience that has a lot to do with storytelling. I don’t mean that, “oh, it’s all just a fiction” or to denigrate it, when I say storytelling, but I think faith is part of the bigger sense of how we as humans take in the world, by taking in all this raw information. You have to filter it through a narrative to make sense of it.

Judd, in the movie, responds to Blanc saying, “This is all just fairytale storytelling.” Judd responds – which is my core belief – “Certain stories resonate with us and that’s because they’re resonating with something that’s deeply true.” And the reality is that’s the only way we can get to some truths is through certain stories. It’s true. It’s why mythology is so resonant for us. For me it is less about the binary of religion, good; religion, bad. It’s much more about getting to what makes religion so powerful. Anything that’s powerful can be used to make the world a better place or it can be used for the worst reasons in the world. 

Daniel Craig’s portrayal of Benoit Blanc is again a lovely, ripe living thing. This time, it reminded me a bit of David Suchet’s performance as Poirot in the TV series and, of course, the way Blanc starts a new story with each film is similar. Rian, is the creation of Blanc your attempt to become a kind of 21st century Agatha Christie?

Johnson: When I wrote the first one, I definitely modelled it after the great detectives of whodunit fiction that I love, and Poirot is at the top of that list. My favourite Poirot is actually Peter Ustinov. I love Peter Ustinov in Death on the Nile [1978] and Evil Under the Sun [1982]. The way that he’s unafraid to be huge and funny is fitting to the character. But at the end of the day, the thing is the creation of Daniel, and the fact that it’s so singular is all in his court now.

We mentioned Poirot, Josh, but there’s a wealth of fine TV and film detectives to choose from. Who is your favourite?

O’Connor: Barnaby from Midsomer Murders. We watched Midsomer Murders every Sunday on our TV, and I just found it extraordinary that this tiny quiet village in England had so many murders.

Johnson:  Isn’t the truth that they added it up and it’s more than the population of the village would be – everyone would be dead?

O’Connor: That wouldn’t surprise me at all. I genuinely absolutely love that show. Neil Dudgeon, who plays Barnaby, was so brilliant.

Josh, it’s a massive ensemble cast and you’ve worked with loads of big stars before, but do you ever get starstruck when you’re working with people?

O’Connor: I think ‘starstruck’ is a tricky one. Earlier on in my career, there is that adjustment you have to make. It’s really interesting why we get starstruck and what that’s actually about. I’ve thought about it long and hard over the last few years because some of the interactions I have with people is often really interesting to me. I think it’s to do with the fact that, particularly nowadays, we watch TV and films on our laptop in bed or in our living room, in our spaces, and so if you see Daniel Craig in public you feel like you know him. And so there is an adjustment to make when you start working with your heroes.

So, starstruck, no, but… in awe of these people? Absolutely. One of the great things about the process of this film is that I was cast and then, piecemeal, I get this little bit of information, sometimes directly from Rian, sometimes I go for a costume fitting and they’d say, Josh Brolin’s coming in next. And you go, “are you kidding me?” 

Rian, it’s 20 years since Brick. What are your memories of making it, and would you ever go back to making something smaller scale like that?  

Maybe. My memories of making that at this point are hazy, but at the same time so strong because some of the people that I made that movie with have been some of my best friends for the past 20 years. That’s very often the case with the first stuff that you do, that you really have put your whole heart into it and it forges you. I had spent my whole twenties trying to get that movie made and then made it right as I was turning 30. So it wasn’t just making a movie, it kind of defined a decade of my life for me.  

Josh, this year you’ve been in this, The Mastermind, The History of Sound and Rebuilding. What a time for you. Next up, you’re in Spielberg’s new one, Disclosure Day, next year. How was it working with him and can you tell me anything about the film?

O’Connor: I can’t tell you anything about the film.

Johnson:  Oh, come on. Oh, come on. [gently teasing O’Connor]

O’Connor: I’ll tell you. But no, Steven’s obviously… everything you’ve heard is true. He’s a dream. He’s somehow still the excited boy I imagine he was when he first locked eyes on a camera. He’s magic. And it was a great pleasure. There were actually a lot of similarities with Rian.

Johnson:  Here we go.

O’Connor: Dead uncomfortable.

Johnson: No, I’m comfortable. Tell me more. [laughing]

O’Connor: I think in the way that you go on a Spielberg set and the images in his films are so distinct and masterful and he can create a beautiful image like breathing, it comes so naturally to him.

It’s exactly the same with Rian. It’s very easy to get overwhelmed by the cameras, the rigs, the sets, the lighting, everything that’s going on around you, but once you are locked eyes with directors like Steven and Rian, it’s only about intention and it’s only about listening, responding and being present in the scene.

Maybe it sounds simple, but it’s actually not at all. The more I work, the more I realise that it’s the fundamental part that an actor needs from a director.  

Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery, which was the Opening Night Gala at the 69th BFI London Film Festival, is on Netflix now.